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debunking "Joe made me do it"

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Post Thu Jun 21, 2007 12:47 pm

debunking "Joe made me do it"

I've been following this pretty closely, and to my knowledge, none of the developers of SpaceFarce have acknowledged that there are severe problems in the current release. The response has been intentionally minimal, and based on this, and based on the partial fix-list supplied by Augustini on the egosoft forums, it looks like they're treating this as a "typical release": some minor bugs and gameplay issues, but nothing more.

Now I would be very happily surprised if Provox openly discussed the severe problems, but judging from the facts we know, this seems exceedingly unlikely.

Provox has not, to my knowledge, blamed JoWood (known as JooWood in Europe) for forcing them to release the game too early. But others have made this excuse on Provox's behalf.

There's probably something to this excuse, but the excuse doesn't match all the facts.

The two or three main challenges I'd bring to this excuse:

1) if one is rushed for time, one doesn't hire an untested incompetent to finish the game. One would hire three professionals, not one student with zero record or experience.

2) the publisher cannot force Provox to go ahead of schedule: it's Provox's fault for signing the contract. JoWood is just enforcing the agreement Provox already made.

3) when was the initial release-date, which JoWood (alledgedly) unfairly moved up? Is there any evidence of this? Was it not perhaps that Provox underestimated how long the betatesting period would take?

and a fourth point:

The game's basic structure is great. The engine is just fine, the art is just fine, etc. (This is the reason we're talking about this monstrosity.) Then the story and mission-design is terrible. How could they put so much effort into it, then piss it away? Did they spend their entire budget on structure, and they didn't have a dime to invest in a decent writer/designer? Did they just decide the writing is really unimportant, so why not hire a numbskull on the cheap?

I really would like to know. But in any case, it's not JoWood's fault.

Post Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:50 pm

I think I will keep an eye on this thread. Batting around blame and issues like this, does no one any good. It only creates ill feelings and judgements, reguardless of the purpose. My view is, if you think the game is so bad, simple, don't play it and walk away from it. It is up to them to fix or not fix anything in the game.

Post Thu Jun 21, 2007 2:54 pm

I hate what I am about to do, but it's about time I gave it a go


none of the developers of SpaceFarce have acknowledged that there are severe problems in the current release.


What are you using as sources on this information? Do you have access to the developers themselves, and their communication? Or is this just publicly? Is this out of the norm, if so, please provide extensive evidence to support the view that other games openly acknowledge "severe problems" in their games before issuing patches.


based on the partial fix-list supplied by Augustini on the egosoft forums


Wait, that looks like they're addressing some severe problems to me... without acknowledging there are issues? Seems weird, no issues... yet they're making a patch. Something doesn't quite add up to me, hmm *points finger on lips*. To address issues in a patch would mean that they do admit there are issues, hence why they're trying to resolve them. You're just disliking the fact that they haven't posted a list of them for us all to read? Once again, never seen anyone do that...

Anyhew, the list:

- fixed bug where resolution couldn't be changed
- added support for 1440x900 resolution
- durability cost changed to 1500 c
- pirate corvete first class is now more balanced (first mission also)
- fixed joystick bug where truster is truned on by default for all joysticks
- EMP now takes 20 units of the shield
- fixed bug where the game freezes (all ships stay on one place)
- fixed bug where player shield suddendly become undefined
- fixed bug with infinite motion blur
- illegal cargo for the current system we are in is now colored red
in inventory
- crafting screen is now available in inventory (only for crafting info)
- crafting screen is now available in repository (only for crafting info)
- easy mode is now much easier
- added support for 1280x800 resolution
- added support for 8x Antialiasing mode (nvidia 8xxx series card)


You fail to mention that the list is roughly only half of their fixes too, and without knowing what the other half are, it's a little difficult to form solid assumptions off of it about issues and severity, as well as how they're ignoring everyone too.


Provox has not, to my knowledge, blamed JoWood (known as JooWood in Europe) for forcing them to release the game too early. But others have made this excuse on Provox's behalf.


Provox haven't made any excuses... I fail to see your point here, you're arguing against an excuse that hasn't been used? Surely you should be happy they're not trying to shift blame about, they're just getting on with sorting it? Not really interested in what anyone except Provox say, after all, there is no honest reliability in anything that is not an official statement from Provox.


Then the story and mission-design is terrible. How could they put so much effort into it, then piss it away?

That's not a bug or problem in a game stopping sense is it? to coin a phrase, "it's a feature" of the game. I will have to wait, but since X'ers are saying the storyline is better than X2/X3 - I am bound to enjoy it

Anyway, maybe it can replace Craplancer - so many deficiencies and "missed promises" in that game, that it sucks.

Post Thu Jun 21, 2007 4:24 pm

Ok Chips, let's go through this point by point:

>> none of the developers of SpaceFarce have acknowledged that there are severe
>> problems in the current release.
>
> publicly?

Yes, publicly. Obviously nobody knows what they're saying to each other privately. One of my main points so far is that they should discuss matters openly with the community. They aren't doing that.

> Please provide extensive evidence to support the view that other games openly
> acknowledge "severe problems" in their games before issuing patches.

It's highly unusual to have "severe problems." The whole "patch" concept is to handle relatively minor or simple-to-fix errors, not thoroughgoing and severe problems. Indeed, the major problems with SpaceFarce are unpatchable, because they are too complex.

I have no knowledge of a game released with such severe problems. I have no knowledge of a game company sinking a bundle of money into a game, and exciting everyone's interest, only to hire a nobody/novice to wreck the thing.

> Seems weird, no issues... yet they're making a patch.

Yes, yes, sarcasm whatever. The point is: all the fixes are minor. They do not address the major problems of the game. As predicted, they're fixing the really easy and really obvious stuff.

> You fail to mention that the list is roughly only half of their fixes too, and without
> knowing what the other half are, it's a little difficult to form solid assumptions.

You already quoted me saying it was partial. Further, I think it's intended to be a representative sample, and I was treating it as such. Obviously, I'm not drawing a definitive conclusion on the patch until after it has been released.

>> Provox has not, to my knowledge, blamed JoWood for forcing them to release
>> the game too early. But others have made this excuse on Provox's behalf.
>
> Provox haven't made any excuses... I fail to see your point here

It's a perfectly simple point. Those who rush to the defense of Provox, and simply blame JoWood for the lack of quality, are not making sense.


Edited by - breslin on 6/22/2007 1:43:39 AM

Post Thu Jun 21, 2007 11:26 pm

Breslin, why do you say that Proxox blame Jowood?
I have not seen any members of staff blame it on anybody, unless you think users on the forums with their own OPINION on the matter are staff.

Breslin stop posting bashing threads, you have bashed the game every post in the forum and every post in this Section of Laners Reactor.

I am very displeased with you doing this and if you dont like the game then dont play it because it seems to you that the devs suck SO DONT TALK ABOUT THEM OR ANYTHING ELSE.

Really stay off the main forums and complaining about it because it really does not help and mostly you never say how they could improve it do you just complian, i cant stop you posting here but i really do you think you should stop bashing the game.

Post Fri Jun 22, 2007 12:54 am

Thomas writes:

> Breslin, why do you say that Proxox blame Jowood?

Actually if you would read what I've written, you would find that I have not written this. On the contrary, I wrote: "Provox has not, to my knowledge, blamed JoWood (known as JooWood in Europe) for forcing them to release the game too early. But others have made this excuse on Provox's behalf." It's the latter matter which I'm addressing.

> Breslin stop posting bashing threads

Who on earth do you imagine I am "bashing," and in what way am I "bashing" them? I am merely debunking an excuse that some people make on Provox's behalf. I am not implying anything nasty about people who make this excuse, except perhaps that they haven't thought the matter through entirely -- but I don't think that's nasty in the slightest.

> mostly you never say how they could improve it

I have posted significantly more suggestions than anyone else has. Again, I think if you actually read what I have written, rather than (unfairly and incorrectly) assume it must be pointlessly nasty, you'll find it far less objectionable than you apparently imagine.

Post Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:35 am

its unusual but this time im not going to rip the statements appart to post what im thinking about it

i simply agree 100% with chips

and you breslin shouldnt claim things that are not 100% official... especially if its about ppl working on the game
nothing is worse then wrong claims, false accusations and stupid rumours spread by angry players

as you have said... provox didnt claim anything about jowood and that will stay this way (because there is no reason to claim anything)
but why even mention this? because some n00b posted such a crap somewhere? what others say is absolutly unimportant... how ppl with 0 knowledge about the situation "analyse" this mess and mix up facts with wild dreams is also not important

if something is not 100% sure (and from what i can see many of the stated points belong to that) then dont claim it

Post Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:11 am

SWAT_OP-R8R writes:

> you breslin shouldnt claim things that are not 100% official.

Unless I'm mistaken, I have not accidentally presented inference or speculation as fact. (Certainly I have not intentionally done so.) If you can point out a case where I have done so, I will gladly clear up the confusion.

Or perhaps you mean simply to suggest a general rule: that it's wrong to discuss things about which there is uncertainty. With this I politely but strongly disagree.

> but why even mention this? because some n00b posted such a crap somewhere?

Many intelligent people have speculated that JoWood is the main reason the game was released in bad condition. I just wanted to add some further thoughts and challenges to this supposition.

> what others say is absolutly unimportant.

Yes, I'm beginning to think you actually believe that.

Post Fri Jun 22, 2007 2:43 am

O_o ok
lets rip it appart again


Unless I'm mistaken, I have not accidentally presented inference or speculation as fact. (Certainly I have not intentionally done so.) If you can point out a case where I have done so, I will gladly clear up the confusion.

Or perhaps you mean simply to suggest a general rule: that it's wrong to discuss things about which there is uncertainty. With this I politely but strongly disagree.


in the past days/weeks you have posted tons of claims against the game, provox and several other things

many of what has been claim was not true... starting with the emails between bp, me and the provox lead designer... continueing with the provox staff ... and many other small things that have been said
often it simply looked like you didnt have the facts and that you created ur own little story around what you have read somewhere (best example is again the emails between LR and provox)


Many intelligent people have speculated that JoWood is the main reason the game was released in bad condition. I just wanted to add some further thoughts and challenges to this supposition.


einstein was also very intelligent and claimed that quantum theory is pure crap (ok he said it different -> "god doesnt dice"
the problem is the one word that you have used... "speculated"
those intelligent ppl can speculate whatever they want... but in fact they were still wrong... so you should think twice if you consider them a valueable source


Yes, I'm beginning to think you actually believe that.


you r speculating...
but i can say for sure that what you begin to think about what i actually believe is absolutly unimportant ^^

Post Fri Jun 22, 2007 5:25 am

SWAT_OP-R8R, you wrote: "this morning ive found a small mail in one of my mailboxes showing how much provox and the SF community are upset and disappointed about how the game is treaten here"

I did not imagine that this was a forwarded email, but thought it was sent to you by Provox.

Separately, but around the same time, bakedpotato mentioned that he received an email from Provox.

I surmised: "they sent a group email to everyone at lancersreactor, from SWAT_OP-R8R to bakedpotato" (Now obviously I didn't really mean everyone, but I figured if a peon like SWAT_OP-R8R is receiving the email, it was probably widely distributed.)

I was mistaken: the email appears to have been sent from somebody at Provox to bakedpotato only, and he forwarded it to SWAT_OP-R8R. I'm sorry about the confusion, although it was not of my own manufacture.

Post Fri Jun 22, 2007 5:49 am

breslin and others, lancers is carring this game to promote it. It supports it and other games and tries to get community involvement. But, attacks and flaming is not part of Support. If you have this much problem with the game, the makers, then move on to another game you like. ANY more bashing of people WILL get this thread locked or deleted for the betterment of the community. True, people are intitled to thier opinions, butthis goes beyond that with he said, she said arguments and helps in no way at all.

So, either leave the acusations at the door, or this thread ends.

Edit - Op, you post following mine and Breslin's have been deleted. No more!! Leave the bickering off the forums, period.

Edited by - Finalday on 6/22/2007 10:29:05 AM

Post Fri Jun 22, 2007 9:35 am

Sorry about the sarcasm, but obviously we differ on what problems are


It's highly unusual to have "severe problems." The whole "patch" concept is to handle relatively minor or simple-to-fix errors, not thoroughgoing and severe problems. Indeed, the major problems with SpaceFarce are unpatchable, because they are too complex.


So wait, what's the severe problem then?


Then the story and mission-design is terrible. How could they put so much effort into it, then piss it away? Did they spend their entire budget on structure, and they didn't have a dime to invest in a decent writer/designer? Did they just decide the writing is really unimportant, so why not hire a numbskull on the cheap?


Ah, will come to that later.

As far as I am aware, you can change anything in a patch. Actually, you can change anything in the patch - the size of the patch may leave a lot to be desired. Heck, you can download a game these days, so am sure a patch can alter a whole game can't it?

Most games have also required patches, hard pressed to find one without these days (or at least the ones I play anyway). Most have patches due to crash bugs, with X3 some couldn't even play the game until the first patch was done... but it's turned out to be an excellent game, albeit a close resemblance to the last one (which was disappointing, but next time I will wait to see what they've got in it before buying it again - wasn't enough change for me to really appreciate a whole new game!).


One of my main points so far is that they should discuss matters openly with the community.


What exactly would you be looking for? If you want them to say "We made a stinker" - then may I refer you to a young gentleman called Ratner who did just that in the 90's, when receiving a business award. He famously said "most of our stuff is crap". It was a joke, but it cost him his business... and it wasn't a small business, but a very successful jeweller!



As for listening and talking, from experience at the Egosoft forums all that it'd entail is them withstanding a HAIL OF ABUSE. Pointless, and a waste of time to be honest - I'd rather they fix up a game than sit around answering abusive people (not all are, but when you read 100's of posts where people are just venting repeatedly, it's not really constructive or useful). Maybe once they've fixed up issues that impact upon being able to play the game (crashes, graphics glitches and issues etc), maybe they will do just that. Surely their priority is making the game playable (in the event that it isn't).


Then the story and mission-design is terrible. How could they put so much effort into it, then piss it away? Did they spend their entire budget on structure, and they didn't have a dime to invest in a decent writer/designer? Did they just decide the writing is really unimportant, so why not hire a numbskull on the cheap?


Is the storyline playable? Are the missions playable? If they are, then they are not a game-stopping problem (unless you dislike them, but that's not a physically stopping thing - that's a personal choice isn't it). I seriously doubt that'll happen, if the storyline is playable, then it's served its purpose. Yes, it may be better written - same for any film, game, book, magazine or any other medium on the planet. They'll address real issues, storyline being "boring, crap, un-imaginative" - these aren't game problems. They're personal problems, you dislike it for whatever reason.

You keep referring to this person who wrote it, do you know what their profession is due to the box or something? Just curious why you keep calling them a student. One trend though, non english originating games do appear to have poor storylines. X3/X2 both have poor storylines in most peoples' books, I personally thought they were okay - I enjoyed playing them
With Freelancer, the storyline was a repeated one - but the voice acting and cutscenes (imo) were outstanding. We were, simply put, spoilt - but that was a larger budget in there, with excellent actors.

However, if you've read what FL was originally intended to be, I'd be amazed that you aren't going on about how ripped off you were by Freelancer... it fell far short of it's original promise.


Edited by - Chips on 6/22/2007 11:11:12 AM

Post Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:17 am

Freelancer was MUCH more than it is now MUCH better. The old Trailer still looks better.

I think this thread should be closed because every post is fighting and nothing is helping the staff here or the SFRU staff so close please mods.

Post Fri Jun 22, 2007 10:35 am


I think this thread should be closed because every post is fighting and nothing is helping the staff here or the SFRU staff so close please mods.


That'll only happen if it can't go any other way than non stop sniping. I don't see anything wrong with critiquing a game at all, but right now I disagree with the original poster as to what those problems are.

To coin an old phrase with regards to the poor storyline "it's not a bug, it's a feature" - which is pretty much true as far as I can gather. Never heard of any game re-writing a story
As for other points, they're interesting enough, and certainly open to discussion whilst it's all civil.

But that's just me opinion

Post Fri Jun 22, 2007 1:16 pm

aha
which bickering?
ive stated pure facts... not more... not less

since ... yes i can already since weeks I see this attempt to make this game and provox look bad under any circumstances
we had statements like "everything is crap", "boycott the game", "they are liars", "they are incompetent", "they try to influence others" and much more
these statements are respectless, manipulating and partly even insulting

we had wrong claims, accusations and pretty interesting stories based on what?... oh yes "speculations"
I tried to relativate what has been said, i tried to correct things (because often ppl consider such wrong speculations and claims to be true - and wrong information is something a gaming community shouldnt be interested in) and i tried to defend something which at least deserves a chance because there are players out there which want to play that game

after watching these threads i cant deny the growing feeling that this is more a private war against the game or the developer then constructive critics which should belong to a community like LR
not only the game, the quality and content, was attacked... also the company and the ppl behind it
it is very questionable that we are still talking about game critics here... it is more a "blame provox for everything you can find"... hell we can also blame them for working on the patch instead of talking to the community all the time... hey we could even blame them because some "inteligent" ppl claimed that jowood didnt give provox enough time
why dont we blame them for not creating a korean version? (or did they do that?)

is this a gaming community where ppl can meet to discuss about the game in a normal way, get information about the game and have fun or is this a "witch hunt"?

i am sorry that i defend that game, i am sorry that i defend the developer, i am sorry that i tried to discuss this issue on a professional/informative level even if i cant say the same about some others, i am sorry that apologized to provox for what is going on here but my understanding for fairness does include that a gaming company does get the respect that it does deserve for years of development... it includes that the players can decide on their own if they like the game or not and that they dont need to read trash talk about the game... it includes that they can play the game undisturbed... it includes that players get help by other players and the gaming community and it does include that the gaming community does show some respect for the support by the developer

all this mess here against SFRU has put a very bad light on LR
many ppl complained about LR in the past weeks
and if LR is considering to support other games in the future then it will be very hard to convince a developer to give the neccessary permissions and support after how provox has been treaten here
one thing is sure if provox is ever going to release a SF3 and if this game will be "THE KICKASS SPACESIM" they will think twice if they allow LR to support that game and other companies reading these threads might do the same
alot of reputation damage has been done to LR

i am very sure that if this would be about a FL mod that is attacked by someone or a group of ppl in the way it was done with SFRU the thread would have been closed within 1-2 days (i know this because this already happened)

well - before this post is also going to be deleted for whatever reason (to my knowledge my last post(s) were not offensive or against the forum rules) I suggest to think about it and the consequences for LR
(maybe next time some ppl dont like a game they start the same crap here)
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