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Shroud vs. Reaper

Here you can discuss tactics and strategies to best beat your opponents. What is the best loadout for each ship? How do you use "Reverse Thrust" and "Sliding"?

Post Tue Jun 07, 2005 2:03 pm

Shroud vs. Reaper

I have an interesting delimma (at least to me). I have used both Shroud and Reaper on the last mission and have beat it with both but am not sure which one is clearly better even though that is a relative term. If I load up a Shroud with a full screamer missile loadout I can take out any ship with the same rapidity of a Reaper and even without these missiles I can normally even it up quickly since the Reaper runs out of weapons energy faster.

The Shroud is undecently meneuverable and the fastest ship in the game though. It can maneuver inside the turning circle of anything in the game not to mention its afterburner fuel load and reverse thrust capability. Cloaking helps somewhat and is most times more a hindrance than a help due to the length of time in which you cannot fire while you cloak/uncloak. It only has a pair of proton cannons for offensive weaponry though. These are not wholly bad but take a while to punch through something. The Shroud does have the best shields in the game too.

The Reaper can carry a MUCH heavier missle loadout and also has much more powerful guns though is much less maneuverable and a lot slower. I can normally take down anything in the game within a the space a a few seconds and some well-placed shots. It however has a lower store of afterburner fuel although it does have reverse thrust. It also has more armor plate.

So - any thoughts? Personally I prefer the Shroud due to the maneuverability bit. If I cannot be hit as much and can hit them more than defenses do not matter as much.

Post Sun Jun 26, 2005 3:14 am

Eh, I think you should check your facts a bit, mate. First of all, the Acceleration on the Reaper is far better then the Shroud. While the top speeds may not be comparable, top speed hardly matters if it takes you five minutes to get there. For example, say you've got a lovely missile coming in on your six, and you're in a shroud, and you jam your afterburner on. Well you make it up to top speed in four, maybe five seconds...and bam. The missil caught up to you in two or three. Now in the reaper you're up to top speed alot quicker, giving you more time to react to the missile because, while you may not be able to out run it, buying you time to think sure is an advantage.

Okay, so that's one problem addressed. Let's take gun energy into account next. In addition to having more guns (to drain the weapons quicker) the Reaper ALSO has a higher recharge rate for it's cannons. The only reason it seems faster in the Shroud is because the Shroud, once again, has a higher storage capacity for energy. So you can fire longer with the Shroud, but once your energy is out it's going to take sometime before it's ready to go again, giving the Reaper the advantage in a long drawn out dogfight.

Okay, second problem addressed. Now let's look at armor. Grab that above situation, missile incoming, 2-3 seconds to react, not enough speed to outrun. Okay, let's see if we can soak up a missile hit, we've got full shields right (Don't get me started on missiles in SL, IMO they're WAY to powerful). So the shroud takes the hit, and well, bye bye Shroud. Not fast enough to accelerate out of the way, and not enough armor to take the hit. The Reaper, however, is all about pilot survivability. With 24 decoys to the Shrouds 10, and extra armor to boot, this is a missile eating machine. Nothing to fear when you're flying a Reaper, that's for sure.

Okay, third problem addressed. Let's look at some other things. Missile hard points. 4 Screamers enough to own anything in a Shroud, huh? How about a Reaper with a load out of no less then 8 Solomon pods. That's double your missile load. Double your pleasure, double your fun, know what I mean? Not only is it double your loadout, but they're Solomons! You haven't played SL until you've seen a Reaper unload a full barrage of Solomon missiles at an enemy flight line. Their formation literally crumbles as they claw for space to survive. And most don't. Well timed Solomon launches can literally rip apart an entire Squadron of enemy fighters in seconds. Try that in your Shroud. Decloak. Fire off your puny wave of four pods worth of missiles and oh my, you just got hit with a missile and have no armor, didn't you?

Fourth problem addressed, we're moving into point five with a strong foundation here...weapons systems. Missiles are lovely things to have along, but they're for special circumstances, and emergenices only (and for disrupting the every annoying Kamov). Early in the SL missions the first time through it was not unusual for me to return home with several missiles still on board my ship. Why? Because I like to have a tactical reserve. That being said, I never rely on missiles or consider them expendable ordance. I count every missile I launch, and make every missile count. And so, the real killing power of your ship comes from the "unlimited" power of your guns. Now, a Shroud can pick away at an enemy all day, and not get a kill, but a full blast from the Reapers guns and that fighter in your sights isn't a fighter anymore, it's a hulk of slag. But that's not the only situation we need to address, as in SL you face turrets and Corvettes. Would you like to try taking down a Kurgen in a Shroud? All by your lonesome? For that matter, how many times have you seen a Kurgen floating around alone? Would you like to take out two, on your own? Now, this problem can be alleviated by carrying extra missiles (IE: Jackhammers or Screamers), but let's think about that. You usually hit Kurgens on the way to the target, not at it. It takes 20 screamers, or 1 jackhammer to take down a Kurgen. With only 4 missile slots on a Shroud, we've used up half our missiles and aren't to our targets yet...with a Reaper, just line it up and let it rip. And don't worry about taking the occasinal hit, you're armor can stand it. Whew. That Shroud is looking pretty dangerous about now, and we haven't in covered turrets, which frankly, I wouldn't want to shoot at in something as paper-thin as the Shroud.

Just a few minor points to make now, you did mention afterburning fuel. This is realtively insignificant, there is a 30 second disparity between their stats, and for the loss of only 1 missile hardpoint the Reaper can more then make up for that and still oust the Shroud for missiles. Also, you may be tempted to mention Cloaking, but this approach is limited in it's applications. Once the enemy knows you are there, he knows you are there. And you DO have to decloak to fire.

Now, that's all been said, and I've sufficently bashed the Shroud, however, I do believe it has it's uses, and an important role to play in combat. In fact, the Shroud could take the Reaper anyday, WITH a skilled pilot at the helm of the ship, who knows how to use it.

Unlike the Reaper, the Shroud is not a dogfighter. It is what I would classify as a Strike Craft. It moves in, hits hard, and then disappears again. That doesn't mean it's out of the fight, but it's made to hit it's target rapidly and then get out of the way again. Moving in and out of combat repeatedly. In fact, the best role I've found the Shroud to take is as a support ship, paticularly useful in turret clearing, or backing up fighters in combat. It performs adequetly in escort roles, but only when face with a limited number of ships.

The Reaper, on the other hand, is all muscle. Don't deploy this ship where time or lives are on the line. This a dogfighters dream, a heavy combat ship with a great weapons load out. And its a ship the pilot can rely on to bring him home, too. If you send this into a dogfight with a nest of enemies you can bet it's going to come back out again, and the enemies won't be to boot. However, try sending this ship against turrets. Without the invisability and agility of its breathren ship the Shroud it would get ripped to pieces easily.

So that's my two cents. Neither ship is better then the other, it depends on the role the ship needs to play. And the pilots abilities and prefrence.

One more note. Both ships have the ability to use blindfire, however, only the Shroud can make true use of this ability as blindfire does not work with multiple weapons systems. A pilot flying the Reaper would need to lead his targets manually. Less skilled gunners should select another craft then the Reaper.

I would classify both ships as ships for "Advanced" players. The Shroud will get ripped apart if you try to dogfight in it, and moving into and out of combat is not a skill "novice" players have. The Reaper, likewise, will get shredded when faced with to many targets, or turrets. Unless it's weapons systems and missiles are used effeciently and quickly. Again, a skill I wouldn't attribute to "Novice" players. So that being said, the Reaper appears to me, as I am a dogfighter at heart. None of this cloak and dagger stuff for me. But I tip my hat to the Shroud, my best friend (who often flys on my wing in the SL Campaign) is quite effective with the Shroud, especially at clearing turrets.

Anyway, sorry for the long post and late reply, hopefully the content will make up for all that. =P

Post Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:11 am

Cloaking isn't very useful on most missions but it's extremely helpful on the last due to the Ion cannon. That's really the only time you need it. That said. I can't beat Ion missions without the Shroud except for 13. I just can't get out of range fast enough.

Post Fri Jul 01, 2005 8:04 am

Later in starlancer i only used two ships the reaper and the shroud. i have used the shroud to great effect in dogfights before but only through extreme cloaking.
but with the reaper i've taken on turrets well enough as well.

On a missoin against basalisks ion cannons or cap ships i take a shroud. escort huge dogfights gamma wing protecting or kurgen killing a reaper. i find a shroud more relieable but the reaper will give you the kill count.

One thing the reaper is murder to someone with a high forcefeedback joystick.

I am the Death_man, the dark lord, the darkness in which all life dies and the bringer of insanity. In my spare time I manage a small pet supply shop.

Post Fri Jul 01, 2005 10:15 am

Never fly either from choice.
The Reaper is, in my opinion, the second worst ship in the game. It's agility is comparable to the Wolverines but it's weapons are less powerful. Also, the Wolverine has the trump card of Reverse Thrust - possibly the most useful toy in the game. The way to win missions in Starlancer is to shot down enemies quickly. that means bringing your guns to bear quickly and that rules out the Wolverine, Patriot, Reaper, Tempest (worst ship in the game) and the Grendel. the Naginata and Predator are too lightly armed. The Coyote is a good ship but I prefer the Crusader and the Mirage - the Crusader for taking on capital ships (spectral shields) and the Mirage for dogfighting (best agility / firepower compromise - even better than the Phoenix because it has more gun energy and a faster recharge rate).
The missile argument used above does not hold true. You have a missile locked on your Shroud, you tap the cloak button and it loses lock. You don't have to be cloaked for any length of time either. Tap - tap, no more missile. As for hitting turrets, the massive shield and, of course, the invulnerability conferred by spectral shields, makes the Shroud quite useful for turret hunting - not that it would be my first choice.
I fly a Reaper in just one mission where I need firepower (those vulcan batteries will fire even when your gun energy is empty) AND blindfire because there are so many torpedos. I fly a Shroud on the last mission where you need a cloak to avoid the Ion cannon.
Most of the time speed and acceleration are irrelevent. Agility rules as long as it's coupled with decent firepower. I fly (in the order that they become available) Crusader, Mirage, Wolverine (Dark Reign mission only), Reaper (Pukov mission only) and Shroud (Borodin mission only).

Ban REVERSE THRUST! Fly something other than a phoenix for a change!

Post Fri Jul 01, 2005 12:39 pm

as i sit here and read all these posts,it seems you all have good valid points,but,,,,Do Any Of you ever deathmatch???i have 4 many years,and i can take down either shroud,reaper,or wolvie easily with a naginata,the ship has crap guns,and no R/T.but damn is it fast ,,and small..u just try 2 get a nagi in competent hands in ur gunsights 4 more than a split second,i keep open game in zone if u would care 2 tryCoop missions r fun,but the real test is against real pilots

Post Mon Jul 04, 2005 2:21 pm

No, because deathmatch is crap. Cramped space. Limited afterburner fuel. No missiles - except what you pick up, how crap is that?? Why would ou pick a Reaper or Tempest when their great advantage is all those hardpoints???
And, of course, no matter how good a Naginata pilot you are, the reverse thrust ship cuts you to ribbons every time.

Ban REVERSE THRUST! Fly something other than a phoenix for a change!

Post Tue Jul 05, 2005 5:10 am

Another thing about deathmatches - the Naginata is probably one of the best ships for it because as Pure said the environment negates the advantages of most all ships - making the Naginata the best for it being naturally fast, maneuverable and in a pinch, deadly.

AkulaSharpe - wow. That is some data summary. Anyhow - about the Shroud's accel - I find that it takes only a second or two to accelerate to max speed. The same applies to the afterburner. It takes nearly no time to get up to 6-760 (kps? kph?) but it does take that last few moments to get perfectly up to a full 800. Plus - I find that missiles do not effect me for some reason in SL. I have had my share of missile warnings and even have done nothing (no ECM or ejectable CMs or maneuvering) to escape them and nothing has happened except for the few times someone fires a Havok or its Coalition equivlent at me.

I can see where you draw Strike Fighter from. It is just about what I use the Shroud for in the Pukov mission - cloak, burn, nail the turrets, dogfight a bit with the Basilisks (this is what I bring screamers for - them and Kamovs), cloak above the hanger, wait for Kamovs, nail them, wait for the second squad, nail them, cloak near Yamato and nail torps. About the dogfighting bit though - I personally hate the Reaper for dogfights. Its turning circle at speed is atrocious especially when fighting Azans and Basilisks. I constantly use up my afterburner fuel just trying to keep enemies in my sights with reverse thrust. In a Shroud it is just turn and whack in a couple of seconds depending on if I help the guns along with a screamer or two.

Screamers - I normally run out each mission because, yes, the Shroud's guns are rather weak and to burn through ships in a dogfight like a chainsaw through butter I need them - if not is is more like three seconds/ship than one or less second/ship (see *). Reapers are insanely powerful on this front I agree with their huge guns. I can burn through fighters quickly amazingly quickly (if I can keep on it) with it but if I try to stay and fight a Kurgan for a bit a fighter WILL burn through even his armor in a single gun burst. Also, as stated above, you need to have a target in your sights to hit it. Far easier done in a Shroud than a Reaper.

Solomans do not seem to work for me for some reason. I can salvo eight at a wing of four Sabres and have only one or two of them killed.

Something about cloaking. I said it was more a hindrance at times. For me, it is, especially when time counts. It takes about two-three seconds to cloak and two-three more to decloak. Although you can line up on a bogey in that time and he will conviently not move for about ten seconds after you open fire it can decimate a Ripper wing in that amount of time. I only use it for turret blasting, ion cannons, missile threats when not engaged with another ship, and disengaging from Kurgan fights. For everything else there is a max dry speed of 400, maneuverability, and CMs.

*Case in point. The Kamovs from the Pukov mission. The minute they emerge I nail each with at least four screamers - detonation within a second. If I try with just Proton Cannons it takes several seconds. With a Reaper it would undoubtedly take a much shorter amount of time but you would not be able to sit right above the hanger waiting for them thanks to the Basilisks and Sabres moving about.

Post Tue Jul 05, 2005 8:45 am

ROFL,u say deathmatch is crap??how can fighting AI b more exciting than fighting a real person??i realize that deathmatch takes way more pilot skill,and as far as a R/T ship cutting a nagi 2 ribbons???lol..just come try it!!!

The Destroyer Has Returned

Post Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:14 pm

IF deathmatch allowed you to arm your ship with missiles, didn't have ****ty "power-ups", allowed spectral shields, gave you full afterburner fuel and, most importantly, allowed you to perform a mission rather than the boredom of going one on one over and over and over and over . . .
I have played deathmatch online and taken out Naginata, Wolverine and Reapers with relative ease with a Mirage. I can only take totally incompetent Shroud and Phoenix pilots with the same ship. I'd rather fly against human opposition but the Starlancer deathmatch mode is crap.

Naginatas are not good against any competent opposition. No firepower and not enough shields or armour. A decent Phoenix, Shroud or even Wolverine pilot should wipe one out in seconds. No matter how fast or agile the Naginata is the reverse thrust function always allows the opposing ship to back off and regain a firing position faster than the non R/T ship can turn out of the attackers field of fire or to bring it's own guns to bear. Watch two decent phoenix pilots going heaad to head and you'll see that they spend as much time going backwards as they do forwards.

Ban REVERSE THRUST! Fly something other than a phoenix for a change!

Post Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:25 pm

i can see u dont care 4 deathmatch,but as 2 the R/T thingy,,any and i mean ANY good pilot who can work throttle WILL negate the R/T of opponents ship..and i bet dollars 2 dognuts u cant kill me,if i got a nagi,,am in zone if u care 2 try

The Destroyer Has Returned

Post Tue Jul 05, 2005 2:32 pm

1 more thing @Pure,u obviously havent played any competent players at deathmatch,or u wouldnt find it boring,i think is very lvl playing field,,either that or you are very good,,either way,i would love a match

The Destroyer Has Returned

Post Thu Jul 07, 2005 9:24 am

Learn to write english and I might oblige! ;-)

Ban REVERSE THRUST! Fly something other than a phoenix for a change!

Post Fri Jul 08, 2005 8:41 am

lol,that sounds like a "duck" to me

The Destroyer Has Returned

Post Fri Jul 08, 2005 12:58 pm

Chances of us meeting accidentally online? Practically zero.
Chances of me downloading gamespy or anything similar? Zero.
Chances of me giving out my MSN messenger ID, E-mail or ICQ name so that a meeting could be arranged? Somewhat less than zero.
Chances of Microsoft gamezone reinstating the Starlancer room? I would guess at zero.

Basically it doesn't look good for you if you want to laser my arse to bits.

Ban REVERSE THRUST! Fly something other than a phoenix for a change!

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